>>281 I will bump slowly with more concrete replies. But instead of copy pasting links (I am guilty of this as well), lets do a systemic study Caste in Vedas/Shruti's Caste in Ramayana and Mahabharatha Caste in Smriti's Caste before and after turkic rule European Concept of caste British hardening of caste Caste survey by British Enforcement of Caste by Indian state

>>291 I have tried to organize various resources I have found according to topic/theme. You might want to check it out. I will keep on updating it. https://1drv.ms/t/s!AjCMqtnwUGsTiTn59b4R3r_L-3EW?e=qBinON

>>311 This is a good collection. I suggest summarizing one paper at a time here in each post. My contributions will be slow, since I am already knee deep in reading material. https://www.indiafacts.org.in/caste-some-alternative-narratives/ Here is a useful write up.

>>332 Can you recommend any guides on how to take notes? I have never done this before.

>>334 It is a good question anon. For your personal notes, anything that records the ideas well is good enough. For publicly academic notes Quotation if direct then in " " If your interpretation then write it without "" Cite papers as lead authors surname, lead authors name , (year) Multiple authors lead authors surname et al, (year) In the end of the note, add the DOI number or link to the paper. --- Start by reading abstract and conclusion to conclude if it is useful to your purpose or not. Any paper that is not useful, skip it. Be brutal with your filtering. Bad information is worst than no information. --- When done with all this, the combined notes can be converted either into a document or into a simplified flowchart.

>>334 I will post some notes here myself, if you like the formatting, you can follow it yourself. depending on your background, find a good editor for your personal notes.

>>281 I found a very interesting rant on caste and wokeness from a usenet post from 1987, nearly 36 years ago. The author is pissed over the wokeness and farce put on by white ISKON members. Really tells you how these macaulayputras have been active for decades. Here's the full article: https://rentry.co/ashoksharmacasterant

>>374 Excellent read and mirrors many of my thoughts.

>>374 Can we please move theological discussion regarding varna to some other thread? Let this thread be solely about the sociological and historical discussion of 'jaati'. Theological discussion on varna has been done to death.

Happy republic day

>>281 I did not see Prof R Vaidyanathan's Caste as social capital here, it is an excellent book.

doi: 10.1017/9781139024723 "The Hindu “legal” texts known as the Dharmaśāstras, dating from the first half of the first millennium, outline normative models for these institutions, but in actual practice, relationships of dependency have been less fixed, more diverse and variable, and more processual than the “ideal” schemes that these texts propose.1 For example, in the period and region examined here – medieval south India – caste was often not the primary determinant of social identity, and women were not necessarily subordinate to male members of their families. As for the figure of the slave (the dāsa [male] and the dāsī [female], in Sanskrit), even the Dharmaśāstras are inconsistent and make it clear that there were slaves of various sorts and that there were several forms of bondage. The fifth-century Nāradasmrti ˙ provides an elaborate typology of slaves, workmen, and servants, taking into account the origins of their condition, the kinds of work they performed, whether they received wages, and their prospects for release from bondage. The later compendium Smrticandrikā, dating from the thirteenth century and probably composed in˙south India, follows suit.2" If someone is being paid for work, then are they slaves ? Can be a bad contract for sure or there can be coercion, but how is this slavery ?

>>477 "From the tenth to fifteenth centuries, I have found fifty-four inscrip- tions that refer to the selling or giving of people, most from the twelfth and especially the thirteenth centuries. There are twenty-two other inscriptions that I have taken into consideration, in which the activities of people termed paṟ aiyar, pulaiyar, pānar, or pallar – people of seemingly low social standing ˙˙ or unfree status – are˙ mentioned." Funny how British themselves used bonded labours and did not consider it slavery, but when tamil kings did it , it is slavery.

>>478 >>478 "The remuneration offered to the paraiyans . . . was reduced to something close to a bare subsistence. It was regulated by the roles of caste and bore no affinity to the actual contribu- tion which these people made to the cultivation of the land.”4 The work of these laborers comprised plowing, transplanting, weeding, and harvesting the crops. The “pannaiyal” were permanently attached to the land and were sometimes sold, while the “padiyal” were in principle hired laborers, receiving a daily wage, but in practice had little liberty and were often indebted to the landowner for whom they worked. Some agricultural workers had formal contracts with landowners – “service agreements” or relationships of debt bondage – selling themselves or their relatives into slavery. These laborers belonged to the untouchable communities of the paṟ aiyar and pallar or, among some who worked for Brahmin landowners, ˙ as pallis. According to the 1871 census of Chingleput were referred ˙to ˙˙ part of the Tamil country, 24 percent of the district, in the northern population were paṟ aiyar and 19 percent pallis. In this region, more than two-thirds of the land under cultivation ˙˙was “wet”/irrigable (nañcai); where irrigation from rivers was not available, the land was watered by tanks (artificial reservoirs that captured rain water).5" So far its not different than medieval Europe or anywhere else in this period. When commending on a specific place they should highlight how it was different compared to others, but so far its more or less same as any medieval society.

>>478 "During the nineteenth century, efforts to consolidate the revenue system and an active abolitionist movement meant that colonial officials and south Indian landowners alike became reluctant to identify these laborers as “slaves.” A new terminology was coined (e.g. “agrestic servant,” “Original Dravidian”) and the focus shifted to their social “backwardness” or their caste (increasingly reified), rather than their lack of freedom and the violent coercion of their labor. In post-Independence India, even as the “pariah problem” has been framed in generalized terms of dispossession and discrimination, aspects of the radically unequal positions of land- owners and laborers persist.6 Given this well-documented post-1800 his- tory of bonded or enslaved agricultural labor, we are obliged to consider how far back this history extends." Ok it is addressed here. "It is certain that the nineteenth-century workers in the fields of south India had their counterparts, similarly unfree and living in similarly straitened circumstances, centuries earlier. Yet such agricultural laborers are scarcely visible in our sources." UNsubtle eyeroll. "An inscription of the early thirteenth century (ARE 1924/91) records that the kutis of two villages suffering under the ˙ that it might be an opportune time burden of heavy taxes were considering to leave for “life in the forest.” Their complaint (or threat), resulted in a revised agreement, fixing new taxes on their lands, with various rates depending on whether the land was irrigated (by picotahs – drawing water up from a well or tank) or on the kinds of crops produced, including red paddy, millet, and sesame that could be grown on dry fields. This inscrip- tion comes from a relatively arid zone." Reading this chapter has been a pain so far. It contradicts itself so many times. "Of this roster of characters – paṟ aiyar, pallar, pānar, and pulaiyar – can ˙˙ having ˙ the status of slaves? any of them be identified as agricultural laborers We can exclude the pānar. Our sources are inconsistent about the social position of members of˙ this group, but these people were not linked to agricultural activities, and in the few inscriptional references to them (with the exception of the one just cited), they appear as recipients of support from the temple, in one case in connection with providing song in the temple.12 The pulaiyar, on the other hand, do seem to have been slaves working the land, although the term may not denote a discrete social group but simply those who were debased and lowly (pulai). From a seventh- century Shaiva devotional poem, we get a vivid sense of the debased and polluted character of the pulaiyar: the poet declares that he will pay obeisance to all of the devotees of Shiva even if they are lepers whose bodies are rotting away – even if they are degraded pulaiyar who strip off the hide of a dead cow and eat its flesh (Tēvāram 6.95.10)." The fuck am I reading. This articles makes claims, then contradicts it. The use of terminology is inconsistent.

>>481 "In fact, there is only a single inscription (ARE 1932–33/171) that identifies paṟ aiyar as workers on the land or as slaves. This is a fourteenth-century sale deed, in which the purchaser acquires sixteen paṟ ai atiyar (paṟ ai slaves) ˙ along with several parcels of land." "Almost all the inscriptions that mention slaves dating from the twelfth and thirteenth centuries are found in what is today Thanjavur district, that fertile part of the Tamil country that surrounds the lower reaches of the Kaveri River" "The definition of slavery and condition of slaves in medieval south India is complicated by the fact that some people who were given or sold to the temple received wages or grants for their subsistence." More eye rolls. I am sorry OP, this chapter is such bullshit honestly.

Ok OP , we cannot waste time going through bad texts. I will roughly go over texts and stick to ones , that are well researched. This text left a bad taste in my mouth. The author/authors can just format a text well, so they write just any bullshit. It is intellectual dishonesty and disgusting to read.

>>477 probably they define slaves as people without any rights, who get treated as property. Also, the hereditary nature of it. These concepts do need to get challenged. Modern wageslaves are also slaves in a slave. >>481 >then contradicts it didn't get how it contradicts. I think I'm missing something. At the end the paper shows that the slavery in SI was quite different from the picture of slavery we have in our mind (think trans-atlantic slave trade), rather it was more of dependency relationship. Use this list. I've reorganized them and I'll keep them updated. https://1drv.ms/t/s!AjCMqtnwUGsTiTn59b4R3r_L-3EW?e=rAo3l8

>>487 A good text should define very clearly and precisely the terms that it uses. This text did a terrible job of that. In many parts it claims that some groups were slaves, then the text itself says that the engravings they used don't mention this etc. There is no point comparing medieval age with transatlantic slave trade, because they are different times. Regardless of what publication or background of the author, we should always ignore such texts. It is bad for your intellect and wastes your time. Let us stick to first principles only. What is Jati Varna Where it is mentioned What is mentioned about it The implementation I am not that deeply interested in. Because a lot of history can be twisted, or has limited evidence or is seen through lens of modernity. Anyway, there is a new podcast from Carvaka podcast on a related topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gde6y0R6Ubw I find these podcasts more rigrous that most of the non science research papers. Copied the new resources, will go through them.

>>491 >This text did a terrible job of that. In many parts it claims that some groups were slaves, then the text itself says that the engravings they used don't mention this etc. Well that's the contradiction the text wants to point out. It means that slavery was a system of dependence than complete subjugation by the owner (the popular western notion) Read this interview to know what I mean https://www.academia.edu/49439212/Towards_a_More_Varied_Picture_of_Slavery >Let us stick to first principles only. >What is Jati Varna >Where it is mentioned >What is mentioned about it The problem with studying texts is that normative texts don't reflects reality. For reference, see the book by Dipankar Gupta 'Interrogating Caste: Understanding Hierarchy And Difference in Indian Society' The author of the paper we are discussing also wrote a book on Devdasis, not using texts but from inscriptions and she found much different picture than that described in the text. Review and response here: https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/169 Normative texts are maybe important for discussing theology but imho they should be last option when in comes to social sciences and humanities. >Anyway, there is a new podcast from Carvaka podcast on a related topic. Let's just say I have a certain prejudice against raitas. I have interacted with that kushal guy previously, and he is a retard, supports ambedkarite notions of caste. But please do list whatever resources you find useful.

>>507 I will refrain from criticizing the text, I tend to read extremely critically. I need sometime to go through new resources. > Normative texts are maybe important for discussing theology but imho they should be last option when in comes to social sciences and humanities. I think its necessary to see both. Without knowing the sources of the theology and its evolution , we have no foundation. We have to assume the readers of this thread know nothing about caste,Jati and varna. The practice - India being so big and varied, we can find examples of everything I am sure. From cannibalism and human sacrifice to enlightenment. The point would then be to find some patterns and commonalities as well as chart the changes. > Carvaka Podcast I don't particularly like Kushal Mehra the person, though I have friends who worked with him in BJP and praise him as a hard worker. Whatever be his personal beliefs, his podcast has good guest and he asks good questions. > ambedkarite notions of caste Well, I am OBC myself, my families history with caste discrimination is not good. We had some land stolen from us because of our caste. But, I experienced none of that and most casteists I know are neo Ambedkarites. As far as I know, Kushal is also hated by them (Idk the why) I would like to point to a very useful resource Meenakshi Jains - The India they saw Collection of essays by foreign travels on India, also contains their views on practice of caste in India.

>>532 An interesting video I came across recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfFCJELPvpY

Interesting https://archive.is/CMO83

>>571 This is quiet common isn't it ? I would have to undergo shuddhi as well, since I have been eating abroad. Though in my community the rule is only applied when I cross the sea.

>>574 If the same thing was done by brahmins people would go reeeee that's why I mentioned it. It means that notions of 'cleanliness' is different in different societies and 'untouchability' doesn't always mean domination/discrimination. It just means 'indifference'. Untouchability exists in modern world too but flagbearers of modernity (the West) will deny it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQcN5DtMT-0 Modernity, in its zeal of rationality wants to create 'standards' and eradicate these 'experiences' (how different communities perceives things differently) and thus homogenizing everything.

I will try and add Pandit Satish Sharma Ji's book here soon. Haven't been able to read that much because of other deadlines, but some conclusions that should be pointed out including from OP and his material. Hierarchy and class structures in west were more discriminatory and restrictive than Indian ones and used explicit slavery. The only thing different was they reformed during the Industrial revolution, while under the Turks and then the Brits, the hierarchies got entrenched in India.

>>577 THis is something that annoys me is the way that "unclean" is automatically seen as a bad judgement as well. It is used to call the Ramayana casteist always. If a Germophobe uses the same term to refuse someone else for touching their food, that is not untouchability. > Modernity, in its zeal of rationality wants to create 'standards' and eradicate these 'experiences' (how different communities perceives things differently) and thus homogenizing everything. In context of Hinduism what I have understood is, they had no real reason to criticize us, so they invented the bogey of caste and sati. The actual evidence of their criticism often comes from missionaries with 0 collaboration from local sources of the same time or non missionary travellers.

>>281 I have finally made a Zotero folder on this topic. Sadly, I am still disappointed by the quality of literature on this topic.

>>281 https://anonfiles.com/Deve29Wfy8/Caste_Conversion_A_Colonial_Conspiracy_What_Every_Hindu_and_Christian_Needs_to_Know_About_Caste_azw3 Pandit ji's book. Hopefully more anons get behind this study.

>>595 You'll find more resources here. regarding xtian falshood https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/03/23/should-hinduism-survive/#comment-7494 I've added some more resources to the list. >>487 Ignore the list at the end, it's just some collection of threads I found interesting

>>607 I will be slow in working on this, I hope some other anons can pick up slack and also contribute. I can contribute in another way that is to make a crypt pad that we all use. Will do it and share it here.

>>660 Should be released in 2 ish weeks in India.

https://krishenkak.wordpress.com/2004/06/25/the-white-solution-to-brown-problems-june-25-2004/ Very interesting read that mirrors my own expiriences. I would like to in future document how whote people live here as well.

Progress in reading has slowed down due to IRL stuff taking precedence. BUT, an important realization that should have been so obvious. Caste strengthening allows decentralized ownership of assets and growth disconnected from big tech and the global Industrial complex. It is an excellent defence against the coming onslaught of modernity. There are aspects of caste that do make me uncomfortable, but that is why understand and discussing it is more important.

One of the biggest strengths of caste is consolidation of capital, talent and resources. Historically jati's focused on a given skill produced superior products, be it weapons, music, arts and crafts or even food. IN modern context, few families still practice this. In music the practice of gharana's is still prevelent. But I don't see Hinduism or dharmic religions interact with modernity. There are no IT gharana's focusing on programming and development. There are no modern weapons development castes , rajputs are limited to twitter fighting or joining the army.

Not my research, sent to me by a friend.

Interesting comment I found. Sheds some light on why 'castes' are endogamous. Follow the comment thread. I hope you are aware of 'Caste of mind'. https://www.brownpundits.com/2021/12/05/india-that-is-bharat%e2%80%8a-%e2%80%8athe-good-the-bad-and-the-overstated/#comment-93186

>>882 Disagree with a lot in the write up but the comments are gold. What is caste of mind ? Googling it, I couldn't find relevant results

>>891 https://www.amazon.in/Castes-Mind-Colonialism-Making-Modern/dp/0691088950 It's the best book if you want to debunk the 'caste'. Some things are outdated as the comment says. For example, Dirks says that caste endogamy started after brits brought in policies incetivizing caste identities. This has been proved wrong by modern genetics. Endogamy has happened, but that's not because of religious/prejudice/discrimination, but rather because of a mix of social, political, economic and religious reasons (ckeck the comments by bhatnagar). Check out this comment and the post for more. https://www.brownpundits.com/2022/08/02/varna-is-indo-european-and-jati-is-indian/#comment-99146

>>891 BTW what do you disagree with? Have you read the book 'Indian that is bharat'

Another interesting BP article. https://www.brownpundits.com/2022/08/02/varna-is-indo-european-and-jati-is-indian/ Probably explains why 1. https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/caste-system-an-indigenous-invention-in-south-india/article4290662 2. Why we don't find mention of any varna groups other than brahmins in the Ashokan inscription (watch the first part of this interview) But I don't believe they simply adopted the jaati system without any reason, there is certain background/context behind it.

>>900 Forgot to link the interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfFCJELPvpY

Might be useful for OP or someone else. Title: Women Heroes and Dalit Assertion in North India: Culture, Identity and Politics Authors: Badri Narayan IDs: 9780761935377, Amazon.com, Google Tags: Social Science, Women's Studies Formats: PDF Path: Click to open This volume explores cultural repression in India and ways in which it is overcome. It studies the burgeoning Dalit politics in North India and shows how Dalit women heroes (viranganas) of the 1857 Rebellion have emerged as symbols of Dalit assertion in Uttar Pradesh and are being used by the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) to build the image of its leader, Mayawati. It demonstrates how myths and memories of the role of Dalits in India′s freedom struggle are employed for constructing identity and reconstructed for political mobilization. Key feature include: – some of the tales used to develop political consciousness at the grass-roots level; – stories picked up from among the people themselves: reinterpreted; packaged; and disseminated orally or via pamphlets; – how gods, heroes and other cultural resources of each caste are converted into political capital by giving them a visual image through calendars, statues, posters and memorials; – how the BSP creates and recreates historical material to expand its electoral base. Based on field studies and secondary information, the author outlines the politics of dissent which uses historical and cultural resources as identity markers in political mobilization. This book is invaluable for students of politics, sociology and history and all those engaged in Dalit studies. **

>>892 Thank you anon. This looks promising. I will take time to read and reply due to some health issues. >>892 >>892 There was a discussion about this on old InCh, of what I remember, around 11th century, Endogamy sets in, which times in with Islamic onslaught on India as well as economic pressures. This has to be seen together with Islamic use of slavery, then turned into this https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/hindu-slavery-under-islamic-dominion-in-india-a-topic-not-discussed-in-history-12209882.html One of the problems with common narratives being that they consider effects of British colonialism but never Islamic. >>893 The first book doesn't define so many core concepts properly, so it can be interpreted in many ways. I like Sai Deepak's arguments, therefore I would give him the benefit of doubt and pass judgement after reading part 2 and 3. But I disagreed with some of the BP authors comments, for example, indo greek sources, yeah they might be relevant, but Christianity in Europe adopted them as their own and used it for their benefit, opposite to the spirit of the Greeks.

>>907 >around 11th century, Endogamy sets in, which times in with Islamic onslaught on India as well as economic pressures. I think you are talking about this paper. My speculation is that: Instability due to invasion -> people become insecure -> people stick together and form tribes -> endogamy.

>>911 YEP, this and another paper. I am less of a social sciences person, so making a timeline, compiling different sources around it is my approach. It makes it easier to absorb the information for me.

Just found out two new books on caste Western Foundations of the Caste System: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-38761-1 Rethinking the caste system: https://opo.iisj.net/index.php/osls/issue/view/115 Also, this interesting paper. Although I haven't read it but seems promising from reading the abstract https://brill.com/view/journals/coso/22/1/article-p74_3.xml

>>966 Western foundations of caste system is good that compiles lot of ideas that western historians tend to ignore, though only two chapters are good. Downloading and adding the other two.

>>967 Have you read it? I still haven't read it. Would you recommend?

>>281 https://doi.org/10.35295/osls.iisl/0000-0000-0000-1318 Not sure if I shared these https://doi.org/10.35295/osls.iisl/0000-0000-0000-1330 https://www.academia.edu/42795501/The_Brahmin_the_Aryan_and_the_Powers_of_the_Priestly_Class_Puzzles_in_the_Study_of_Indian_Religion

>>281 https://www.amazon.in/dp/9392209347 Seems to be out in India. Can't find it on Amazon Germany yet.

>>999 Anyone has a copy ?

>>968 Sorry i lost this post. Yeah.not all articles are gold but some are.