I want to see actual Sonic zones as biomes in a contiguous world with Sonic aesthetics and level design. I want actual level design. Frontiers level design is ike BotW, but it should be more like DK64. That game had hand-crafted puzzles for multiple playable characters, had missions that spanned the whole stage, it had "dungeons", and the stage opened up naturally as you played through it.

The big problem with Frontiers 2 is that Sonic Frontiers sold really well for a Sonic game, especially in japan. It sold better than Shadow Gens in fact. This shows that despite its flaws Frontiers still was an appealing game to normalfags and japs, even moreso than Shadow Gens. It shows that pure Sonic games like Shadow Gens are not popular with normalfags and japs unlike this new open world BOTW ripoff. Because of this, Sonic Team can't just make open world game that's 100% Sonic like Sonic Utopia for example. They still have to follow Sonic Frontiers' design somewhat if they don't want to alienate this new audience.

Shadow Generations already took concepts from Frontiers and refined them. I'd say it's a much better game, despite not even being sold as a full game. Hopefully the next real 3D Sonic game follows the trends from Shadow Generations. By that I mean make it more and more like Sonic Adventure 2, but with open world stuff, since people seem to like that. And obviously make the open world one large world, like Shadow Generations, but much bigger. Obviously they intended that with Frontiers and just fucked up. >>26124 >I want to see actual Sonic zones as biomes in a contiguous world with Sonic aesthetics and level design. Oh yeah this. Frontiers looked super boring. How hard would it be to just set it on Angel Island or whatever, and let us run around those locations? I guess technically you get to run around a tiny section of Angel Island open world in Sonic Adventure. You can have that little section be the same in a new game, as a reference, but then expand upon it tremendously. And don't start about how layouts shouldn't be exactly the same, because that would be boring, and therefore it should be a different location in the story. Hyrule is different every time, but we can still accept that it's always Hyrule. >>26125 >The big problem with Frontiers 2 is that Sonic Frontiers sold really well for a Sonic game, especially in japan. It sold better than Shadow Gens in fact. Shadow Generations wasn't even sold like a full game. It hardly counts. But clearly they were testing some ideas. It's not even like it was that different from Frontiers. To casuals, it's clearly the same formula. The little differences only matter to nerds. But that includes me. They matter to me.

>>26126 >It's not even like it was that different from Frontiers They only share the same character controller and level design ideas. Everything else is all different. Even normalfags and japs can tell which is why Shadow Gens sold worse than Frontiers. >Shadow Generations wasn't even sold like a full game It's as full as a pure boost game is going to get. Its smaller price and Sonic Movie 3 hype should have made it more successful than Frontiers but that wasn't the case. I think that was due to Shadow Gens being too Sonic-like. (I know this sounds retarded but that's probably how normalfags and japs view Shadow Gens)

>>26123 >>What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? Really, the game already has a good base, they really only need to further improve in it, a real physics system for example, i get why the game was like that but we really need to play more with the physics after getting a taste of it with the spindash. >>How should the sequel improve upon the original game? Physics to begin with, also we really could use original themes for stages that arent fucking green hill yet again. >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? Recycled stages, the original levels they had were pretty good, they really just need to stop relying so much on past stuff and make something new. >What could be its vision and design philosophy? Maybe a focus on rhythm? there's a certain sense of zen in the open zones where you can just chain multiple mini challenges together, maybe if they stopped pausing everytime you finish an objective you could chain multiple together, since i do think all the cutscenes break the pace somewhat.

>>26129 > a real physics system for example, i get why the game was like that but we really need to play more with the physics after getting a taste of it with the spindash. Frontiers already supports 360 degree movement and light slope physics. Their problem was with making Sonic's movement work with realistic and rocky terrain. That's the reason why the controls feel so janky and even I don't know how they could fix that.

>>26133 wow

>>26128 >They only share the same character controller and level design ideas. So the main core of the game. This is like saying Sonic 2 isn't like Sonic 1. Like yeah, as a massive autist, I can tell the difference, but it's obviously an incremental change on the same formula. >Even normalfags and japs can tell which is why Shadow Gens sold worse than Frontiers. Shadow Generations was sold like a bit of side content to a near-identical remake of Sonic Generations. It wasn't a "real" game as far as normalfags and casuals are concerned. It's the equivalent of Zelda Four Swords. >It's as full as a pure boost game is going to get. I agree it is, but I said it wasn't sold as such. It was sold as a bit of additional content on a rerelease of a game from 13 years earlier.

>>26158 >So the main core of the game I disagree. Frontiers has multiple features (combat, focus on the open world, puzzles) that are not present in Shadow Gens as that game is just a boost game with a small hub world. They are nothing alike imo. >Shadow Generations was sold like a bit of side content to a near-identical remake of Sonic Generations Really? I thought it was the main focus of Sonic X Shadow Generations. I remember that it got the most screentime in trailers and gameplay footage.

>>26133 >even I don't know how they could fix that. just don't do realistic terrain and stick to cartoony textures.

>>26123 >What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? Level design like from Update 3 >How should the sequel improve upon the original game? They should make the combat less shitty. >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? Generic realistic art style. >What could be its vision and design philosophy? I think Frontiers 2 will be the middle-ground between what Sonic fans want and what japanese players liked and disliked about Frontiers.

>>26123 >What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? Challenging and creative platforming like updates 2 and especially 3. Arcade modes like update 1. Fully original level design and locations. Multiple playable characters like update 3. Improved controls with even more freedom of movement. Online multiplayer/races >How should the sequel improve upon the original game? Make the platforms and other objects actually feel like part of the environment >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? The awful pop in >What could be its vision and design philosophy? What we know about this game so far is that Kishimoto treated the Frontiers updates as a testing ground for "Frontiers 2", and that he considers "Frontiers 2" the be "the second game in the third generation", with the first generation being the 2D Classic-like games, and the second generation being Adventure AND boost. But the weird thing nobody talks about is that Kishimoto said "the third generation" isn't simply defined by the "Open Zone" concept, but that there is a "secret" that he hasn't talked about yet that makes Frontiers unique compared to all the previous games. I haven't seen any discussion on what the secret might be. My theory is that the secret is player customization. Frontiers is a box full of toys, and although there are some limitations in place, the goal of the game's design is to let players play however they want. This means, if you don't want to play the normal stages, you don't have to. If you don't want to fish, you don't have to. If you just want to run around randomly, you can just do that for the most part. After you complete the story you unlock the arcade modes and you can just play those instead of running around the Open Zone if that's what you prefer. Previous games force you to complete every objective to progress but in Frontiers you decide what you want to have fun with and that's that. The same design philosophy also applies to the physics sliders, to leaving the Homing Dash in the game for players to experiment with, and even to listening to fan feedback on Twitter for the updates. They saw we like mods and fangames, so they're trying to implement the mods and fangame experience into the actual games as well. People criticize this as the developers not doing their job, asking us to design the game for them, and to an extent I understand that, but I think these are supposed to be like toys for us to play and experiment with. I think it's supposed to be like Mario Maker but without the level editing part (for now?) where each part of the game is designed to work in a certain way and give players creative ways to interact with it. I think this is the direction Kishimoto wants to take his next game(s) in, not necessarily (just) Open Zone

>>26126 >I guess technically you get to run around a tiny section of Angel Island open world in Sonic Adventure. I have fantasized about this many times, long before Frontiers

>>26158 All the promotional material made it clear that SEGA considers Sonic Generations and Shadow Generations to be two separate games in the same style, and that Sonic x Shadow Generations is a collection/bundle that contains both. But I agree most people didn't understand that and just consider Shadow Generations "the Shadow DLC campaign", despite it being the heavily advertised part of the bundle

>>26320 (Me) I just realized I quoted the wrong part of the post >You can have that little section be the same in a new game, as a reference, but then expand upon it tremendously This is what I fantasized about

Hot take: naming it "Frontiers 2" would be stupid.

>>26324 I don't think anyone wants that name or thinks it's going to be called that. Kishimoto called it the second game in the third generation I take things further and say that the name "Adventure 2" was a mistake. They should have given it its own title. I think "Sonic Ultimate" could have worked well

>>26324 >>26325 Isn't it going to be called Sonic Explorers?

>>26326 Even if that "leak" was real (it isn't), it claimed that name was for a metroidvania spinoff where you play as Vanilla

>>26325 I think Adventure could get away with it because the word "Adventure" has more oomph to it than "Frontiers", but I get your point.

The only thing I want is Hyper Sonic to be officially canon.

>>26330 I don't get why it would be so hard?

>>26329 It already is >but Iizuka said It's in the game, so it's canon. What the games do and say and show is what matters, not some random interview/podcast/Twitter post/private message/other random nonsense. If it's in the actual content that we experience, it's canon, if it's outside of the content then it's just an idea that practically doesn't exist

>>26332 >It already is Then I want to see it return in a mainline Sonic game.

>>26333 Yeah that would be cool

>>26327 I know the leak is fake, but I thought they registered the "Explorers" trademark or something?

>>26327 >it claimed that name was for a metroidvania spinoff where you play as Vanilla Honestly, would play.

>>26338 They registered "Sonic Spin Battle" in October 2024 and "Sonic Blitz" in February 2025

>>26123 I'm mostly interested in how they improve the open zone, God knows they've got room for improvement there. The cyberspace equivalent is probably the next most important, having good stages, but I think they've got a really good formula to work with.

>>26347 Smaller maps that are densely packed would be a good change, and the open challenges could be little "mini stages", kind of like the Zelda stage in LW but on a grander scale

>>26349 I disagree, if anything I'd want them bigger and less dense. I'm biased though since the zones feel smaller when you have infinity boost and spindash unlocked. Sometimes I boot of frontiers just to run around the island and I like that there's plenty of room to avoid enemies and obstacles without breaking my pace. Shadow gens's white space felt too cramped to do that. Shadow doesn't level up his speed stat though. Sonic in Frontiers does, so the later islands at least ought to be pretty expansive to let you really zoom around.

>>26366 I'd agree if they can actually give each map an actual identity that isn't just "desert island" or "lava island"

>>26349 >>26366 I think a big open world map that features both dense and empty areas would be ideal. I also want Frontiers 2's open world to be designed with more intent and flow. Kinda like THPS levels which also feature terrain perfect for Sonic gameplay.

I really want to know how legit this will turn out to be, and if that anon talking about playtesting a new sonic where you "build" the levels yourself were real.

>>26422 I think it's the most believable-sounding leak so far. Now that doesn't necessarily mean it's real. There was also a random /sthg/ post that made me suspicious of it

>>26424 I felt like the towers with floating platforms and the dlc was a beta for this concept. They seemed "built" already, and unnatural.

>>26125 I wonder what they will prioritize. Sonicfags or normalfags?

>>26422 >thinks it was silently shitcanned because it hasn't been announced yet Is he retarded? Mario hasn't had a mainline 3D title announced in nearly a fucking decade.

>>26422 >cyberpunk-esque city …So just a regular Sonic city?

>>26332 >It's in the game, so it's canon. It's not necessarily in the canon events of the game. Not everything you can do in the game is necessarily what happened in the canon version. For example, the canon version of the story is clearly Sonic & Tails, followed by Knuckles. Sonic Alone and Tails Alone are obviously not the canon versions of that game. Likewise, there's nothing that indicates Hyper Sonic actually happened. In fact, if you get Hyper Sonic, you don't get the post-credits scene of Eggrobo surviving, which leads into Knuckles' story. That's a flimsy piece of evidence, I know, but it's some evidence that perhaps in the canon version, Sonic got all the Chaos Emeralds but not the Super Emeralds. I do strongly agree with your point that "word of god" does not override what is seen in the actual product, but in this particular case, I'm not sure the actual product shows what you think it shows. For another example, in Sonic CD, the Bad Future is seemingly canon, because in Sonic 4, Metal Sonic is rescued from Stardust Speedway's Bad Future. Is unlikely the people who made Sonic 4 even gave a shit? Yes. But it's in the game, so it is more canon than anything else. Also, all those endings of Shadow the Hedgehog where Shadow kills a main character, like Sonic or Eggman, obviously isn't canon. I don't see Hyper Sonic as being very different from that. Maybe Sonic could become Hyper but has never actually done it in canon.

>>26123 >What do we want to see in Sonic Frontiers 2? I want to see an Open World (or Zone or whatever) with actually decently Sonic-looking asthetics and all original level themes. The world needs to feel more alive as well, NPCs are nice, but the environment should change as the story progresses. The game needs to have spectacle as well. Forces tried having spectacle and failed, Frontiers sort of tried it with the Titan fights, but I really want some sort of big setpiece on par with Terminal Velocity or the Orca Chase from Emerald Coast. I would like to see the levels integrated into the world itself, but I wouldn't be outraged at more cyberspace style stages. >How should the sequel improve upon the original game? The rails need to be more integrated into the environment, the terrain itself needs to be less flat, Sonic needs a better moveset, the puzzles and challenges need to be more challenging. >What shouldn’t be in the sequel? No Pinball minigame, no shmup final boss, less pop-in. Make the open world platforming less automated. A couple of the minibosses were also kind of bullshit and would interrupt your flow if you got too close to them. >What could be its vision and design philosophy? Frontiers was carried hard by the open world gameplay loop of going through the floating platforms and collecting tokens (while having enough important challenges and cyberspace levels to keep things from becoming monotonous). Frontiers 2 needs to evolve and interate upon that gameplay loop to be successful.

>>26691 I'm inclined to say they'll try to appease normalfags since almost every time in the past that Kishimoto's been given the choice between normalfags and Sonicfags, he's always pandered to normalfags. >After Secrets Rings' success, he doubled down on the motion controls normalfags had fawned over with Black Knight instead of making a normal Sonic platformer. >Kishimoto based Lost World's sky dildos and lack of a boost off of normalfag playtesters' complaints of falling off the level too often in boost games >Kishimoto said Frontiers' cyberspace stages were put in to avoid alienating traditional Sonic fans (implying that they weren't Frontiers' target demographic) The only times he pandered to Sonicfags was with Forces and Frontiers' DLC and given how Sonicfags received those he's not likely to do it to the same extent again.

>>26778 Oh, I agree with all of that. Hyper Sonic may not have happened in the actual timeline, but it's a possibility in the game, so it exists nonetheless, it's something Sonic can do

>>26798 I'm still mad that Sonic fans on Twitter had a negative reaction to the towers in The Final Horizon. Finally we get some challenging platforming again and they complain about it

>>26927 Why is it such a recurring problem with sonic "fans" desu >Bitching about how the games are too easy "hold right/boost to win" >They get an actual challenging stage/game >They bitch about how it's bullshit and they can't just hold right/boost to win anymore

>>26932 I haven't reached Eggmanland yet (I'm playing Unleashed for the first time), but everything I hear about it makes it sound fun

>>27125 Having played it for the first time not too long ago either, i can confirm it's very fun desu. It's very tough but it's pretty doable, only gets kinda bullshit in the final room with the 2 titans. Otherwise it's really just a test of everything the game has been teaching you up to that point.

>>26932 Because the fans that complain only engage with the franchise for clout. These "fans" played a few hours of Frontiers and then formed opinions on what they like based on what they heard Youtubers (who completed the game) say about it and then repeated and amplified these opinions into Kishimoto's Twitter. When the DLC finally came, these "fans" downloaded completed save files and entered the DLC to play it for the clout only to get raped by Cyberspace 4-B, the First Tower and Knuckles' weird controls. Since these fans have very high opinions of themselves, they immediately conclude that it isn't a skill issue, but instead that Sonic Team was wrong. These negative reactions were further amplified by more twitter "fans" who had never even played the game. At the time when it came out, it was hilarious to see how all the negativity of peoples reactions to it was directly proportional to their skill level/desire for challenge.

>>27211 Yeah, that makes sense, I can believe that >they immediately conclude that it isn't a skill issue, but instead that Sonic Team was wrong. And this sounds familiar. It's just like certain video game reviewers...

>>27211 I still remember that one interaction in /sthg/ >Bitching about how sonic never shuts up and kept going "heh reference" >I mention how when i was playing he never said anything >Get a reply saying that sonic will only ever quip if you idle, and it counts as idling if you don't get anything done for minutes at a time. Kinda opened my eyes to how shit people are at sonic desu.

I wonder how they will approach wall running because it was really janky in Frontiers. It always made you run down cliffs instead of launching you forward like in normal video games. I think that happens because the collision on these cliffs is sloped enough that Sonic can keep himself grounded and transition into a wall run. Another issue is that the cliff faces are way too jagged. It makes wall running feel really unpolished. Maybe that could be solved with a more stylized environment that features sharp edges and smooth walls?

>>27625 Depends if they're going back to realistic environments or cartoony

>>27625 Fuck, why couldn’t the world have actually looked like a Sonic location in Frontiers?

>>27648 Stylized environments don't have to be cartoony in order to be stylized. They just don't have to be fully accurate to real life. You can have smooth walls and sharp edges in an non-cartoony game as that's still stylization.

>>26124 I'd love that and multiple characters to play with besides Sonic.

>>27625 > a more stylized environment that features sharp edges and smooth walls? A city is perfect for this, just think Spiderman with the wallrunning. I just don't want another empty field.

>>27739 It was well received with Frontiers so I expect the next game to have more of that >>27743 Same. I want a new city, and I also want the typical creative environments of previous Sonic games

Which real life city would you like Sonic Team to use as inspiration for the next Sonic game?

>>27748 Tokyo. It looked good in Shadow Gens and it would make the game more appealing to nips.

>>27750 I'm surprised it took them so long to use Tokyo. They needed American involvement for it to happen for some reason, it's weird. I guess a lot of people hated Japan in America in the 2000s but if they did they probably also hated Adventure/2000s style/Japanese Sonic and if they wanted to appeal to Japan as well they could have done it

Since they've just done Tokyo with the movie DLC, maybe they could base it on another Japanese city. Kyoto would be a good one. I think Sapporo could also work if they want something more modern looking

Tokyo looked great but was held back by being a notably automated and 'cutscene' heavy Boost stage. Give me an actual stylised Shibuya to run and jump around in and we could be eating good.

>>26123 I just want it to play like Shadow Generations does , and I want some new Sonic transformations. Super sonic 2 was pretty kino and honestly would be cool to see him go straight to this everytime he transforms from now on.

>>28048 >I just want it to play like Shadow Generations does In what way exactly?

>>28065 Shadow just handled really well and the movement feels like it flows with the level design, responsive controls without alot of the Jank frontiers seems to have. It also has a far superior feeling of momentum.

>>28069 Interesting, I heard this a lot but I haven't played the game yet so it's kinda hard to imagine

>>28070 Play it, its fucking great

>>27625 >sharp edges and smooth walls It's funny how they knew that already in games like 06 but then they unlearned it with Frontiers

>>27756 >I guess a lot of people hated Japan in America in the 2000s You must be very young. If anything Japan was much more popular in America in the 2000s. It was the height of weebdom. Anime was much more mainstream. 4kids might have tried to censor japanese text and stuff, but kids were watching the shows specifically because they were Japanese.

>>28069 Shadow Gens' controls are good but I still wouldn't call them great like a lot of people claim. It feels really slow to me, especially in the 2D levels which has been a problem they've had since Lost World and still haven't fixed. Just let me go as fast as I did in Sonic Rush already if you're going to insist on continuing making 2D sections in these games.

>>28473 >making Sonic Rush your baseline for 2D Sonic instead of one of the Genesis games.

>>28492 Comparing it to Rush because they both have the boost.

>>28444 Well then correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression this was more so the case with specific communities early/mid 2000s communities, mostly filled with teenagers or at most young adults who liked anime/manga, while most older Americans hated Japan and Japanese media, and the "height of weebdom" was more like a controversial sub-community that was at first hated by almost everyone and otherwise only looked cool to younger kids, and so grew in popularity as they got older in the late 2000s/early 2010s. That's how I've come to understand it at least

>>26927 >>26932 >Sonic Team made an update based solely on Fan Feedback >The fans hated it Do you think Kishimoto even knows what made people like Frontiers in the first place given these interactions?

>>28593 I loved it at least, major technical issues aside, I don't understand those Twitter people

>>28593 Imo the only good part of update 3 was its level design. The new playable characters were alright but they also suffered from being really janky and OP. Everything else just wasn't very good.

>>27677 They wanted to appeal to normalfags and nips with the realistic art style

>>27677 >>28869 Several Sonic games from long before Frontiers look like that though

>>28946 They still had more stylization in their environments. With Frontiers, Sonic Team was aiming to create photorealistic scenery.

>>28946 How many of those games are praised for their art style?

>>26123 I wonder if Kishimoto will finally embrace pinball physics with Frontiers 2

>>29178 Do we know what physics mods for Frontiers Kishimoto looked at?

>>29195 https://x.com/FreezyReef/status/1637367419382665216 https://x.com/Proto_arts/status/1876045023780966846 https://x.com/Proto_arts/status/1875193122617258189